Roman Reigns vs Seth Rollins: The complete history of WWEs biggest rivalry
Summerslam 2026 will play host to two of the biggest matches currently possible in WWE, with the dual main events of CM Punk vs Cody Rhodes and Roman Reigns vs Seth Rollins. While both of these rivalries have a lot of historical context behind them, most of what makes Punk and Rhodes so compelling happened outside of WWE, but that is not the case for Reigns and Rollins.These are two WWE lifers whose careers have defined the last two major eras of programming, and may continue to do so for a good few years yet. Whether Summerslam actually is their final one-on-one match before either man hangs up their boots remains to be seen, but it sure feels like the end of an era is nigh.But with almost 15 years of history in WWE alone backing this story up, you may not have been there for all of it, which is why were going to give you a comprehensive breakdown of the Roman Reigns vs Seth Rollins rivalry, and why its such a big deal that it could finally be coming to an end in August.Pre-WWE careersRight from the beginning, these two could not be more different.Seth Rollins took the indie wrestling scene by storm as Tyler Black throughout the 2000s. Debuting in a local Iowa promotion in 2004, hed slowly rise the ranks before signing with Ring of Honor in 2007, winning multiple tag championships before eventually winning the world championship from Austin Aries in 2009. Later that same year, he would sign a developmental deal with WWE, becoming Seth Rollins in the process.Roman Reigns, meanwhile, never wanted to be a wrestler. While his family tree is full of successful wrestlers, he has admitted that he always saw pro-wrestling as a backup career, and football was his main ambition. Unfortunately, health complications would put paid to this career path. He was signed and quickly released by both the Minnesota Vikings and the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2007 due to complications with leukemia.After recovering, he went to the CFL and played one season for the Edmonton Eskimos in 2009 before being released at the end of the season. That is when he decided to take the plunge into his backup career, signing a developmental deal with WWE in 2010.NXTSource: WWEBack in 2010, NXT as we know it didnt exist; instead, WWEs developmental property was called Florida Championship Wrestling, where both men competed but neither did anything of note. Though there was one fun tidbit: a triple threat match between Rollins, Reigns, and Dean Ambrose, which saw Reigns get the victory. A strange omen of things to come.Then, in 2012, Triple H took over the running of WWEs developmental and rebranded FCW as NXT, borrowing the name of WWEs ill-fated game show that had run for a handful of unsuccessful seasons.In Triple Hs vision of this new brand, there was one man he saw as the future of this company: Seth Rollins. Defeating Jinder Mahal in the tournament finals, Rollins was crowned the first-ever NXT Champion.Reigns had a much smaller presence in NXT, as he only wrestled one televised match as a wealthy elite heel character that never got off the ground. Thankfully, it didnt need to, as the big break the two had been searching for was right around the corner.Survivor Series 2012: The Birth of The ShieldJan 27, 2024; St. Petersburg, FL, USA; CM Punk reacts during the Mens Royal Rumble match at Tropicana Field. Mandatory Credit: Joe Camporeale-Imagn ImagesThe story of how The Shield came to be is somewhat debated, but the generally accepted narrative is thus:CM Punk, who was the heel WWE Champion at the time, pitched an idea for a faction of young NXT guys who would serve as his mercenaries, protecting him and beating down his opponents. The three men Punk pitched for this faction were Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, and Kassius Ohno (more famously known as Chris Hero on the indie scene). WWE liked the idea, but vetoed Ohno in favour of Roman Reigns.The plan was set, and when the main event of Survivor Series 2012 rolled around a triple threat match between CM Punk, John Cena, and Ryback The Shield swarmed the ring, beating down Ryback and using their signature Triple Powerbomb to smash him through the announce table.It was a smash hit. In 2012, WWE fans were desperate for some new blood at the top of the card after several years of John Cena and Randy Orton dominating programming, so The Shield were immediately one of the hottest acts in the company, and their momentum could not be stopped.2013: Believe in The ShieldWhile The Shield started off as CM Punks goons, they didnt stay that way for long. Theyd come out in their riot gear, walking through the crowd rather than the entrance ramp, and project a cool aura whatever they did and most of what they did was beat people up. While they were younger and less experienced stars, their numerical advantage allowed them to credibly get the upper hand on much bigger stars like John Cena, The Rock, and even The Undertaker.The makeup of the group was near-perfect too. Dean Ambrose was the best talker, and therefore the main mouthpiece of the group. Hed bring a scrappy, violent energy to his matches that made him standout from WWEs standard style. Seth Rollins was the high-flyer. His indie-rific style made him a big hit with fans of the fast-paced modern style that was breaking through into the mainstream. Finally, Roman Reigns was the strong and silent enforcer of the group. Hed barely say anything, but he didnt need to, because when Rollins or Ambrose tagged him into a match, hed destroy whoever was in his way.This formula rocketed the group to huge success, getting major wins over every trio they came up against, getting more and more popular with the fans every time they made an entrance. By mid-2013, all three of them were draped in championship gold, with Roman and Seth winning the Tag Team Championships from Team Hell No, and Dean Ambrose winning the United States Championship from Kofi Kingston.It seemed the only thing that would be able to stop The Shield was themselves.2014: Plan B and the breakup of The ShieldThrough the first-half of 2014, the cracks began to show. While Roman Reigns dominated in the 2014 Royal Rumble, coming second to winner Batista, the trio lost in an all-time great match to The Wyatt Family, and tensions were running high. After the groups overwhelming popularity led to them turning face, they took on Triple H, Batista, and Randy Orton better known as Evolution in a pair of fantastic matches, where The Shield came out victorious both times.It wasnt to last, though, as right when it felt like they couldnt get any higher, Triple H triggered Plan B. In a moment that will forever live on in wrestling history, Seth Rollins turned on his brothers in The Shield, smashing a chair into Roman Reigns back and joining Triple Hs Authority faction instead.And so, a generational rivalry began.Money in the Bank 2014: SeparationIt didnt begin right away, though. Despite such a hot angle with all the momentum in the world, Roman Reigns was actually separated from Seth Rollins immediately following the groups dissolution. Rollins would instead enter a long-running blood feud with Dean Ambrose, while Reigns began moving up the card and competing for the WWE Championship.At Money in the Bank 2014, Seth Rollins would win the golden briefcase, giving him a guaranteed world championship match whenever he wanted it. Meanwhile, Roman Reigns was unsuccessful in a different ladder match for the WWE Championship, which had just been vacated by Daniel Bryan.Eventually, Roman would seek out retribution on Seth, but circumstance would get in the way. The two were set to face off at Night of Champions in 2014, but Roman Reigns suffered a hernia in the week before the event, which meant he had to have surgery. In a display of heelish arrogance, Seth Rollins would come out at Night of Champions anyway and claim a victory over Roman Reigns by way of forfeit.Roman would come back within a couple of months, but he wouldnt have the upper hand.WrestleMania 31: The Heist of the CenturySource: WWESeth continued to hold on to his Money in the Bank briefcase through the start of 2015; meanwhile, Roman Reigns was ascending to his place at the top of the card, winning the Royal Rumble in one of the worst nights in WWE history. To fully explain why would require a whole other article, so to cut a very long story short: WWE fans did not want Roman Reigns to be the conquering hero WWE was presenting him as.Still, whether the fans liked it or not, the stage was set for WrestleMania 31, where Roman Reigns would face the dominant monster champion Brock Lesnar for the WWE Championship. It was a great and brutal match, but thats not what its remembered for.Instead, one of the greatest moments in WWE history took place. At the climax of the match, when both men were down, Seth Rollins music hit, and he sprinted to the ring. He cashed in the Money in the Bank briefcase, inserted himself into the match, and won it. In an iconic call, commentator Michael Cole dubbed it the Heist of the Century, and history was made: Seth Rollins was the first of the two men to win the WWE Championship, and he stole it from Romans fingertips in the process.2015: Rollins reignsSeth would remain champion for most of 2015, and while Roman did compete for the title as part of a four-way match at Payback 2015, the two wouldnt compete one-on-one at any point that year. Instead, Rollins would feud with Randy Orton, Dean Ambrose, John Cena, and even Sting throughout his title reign, usually coming away with the win after some heel shenanigans from his many Authority stablemates.Rollins couldnt stay away from Reigns forever though, and the match was set for Survivor Series 2015. Seth Rollins vs Roman Reigns for the WWE Championship.But fate would once again intervene.Survivor Series 2015: Tragedy strikes (twice)In a house show a few weeks before Survivor Series, Seth Rollins would take an awkward landing on a sunset flip from the top turnbuckle, tearing his ACL, MCL, and Meniscus. The expected recovery time for this injury was between six and nine months, so he was forced to vacate the WWE Championship, and his planned match with Roman couldnt go ahead.In its place, WWE organized a tournament to crown a new WWE Champion, the finals of which were Roman Reigns vs Dean Ambrose, with Roman getting the win over his former Shield-mate, and winning the WWE Championship for the first time in his career.But not for long.Just five minutes later, Roman would once again become the victim of the Money in the Bank briefcase, this time held by Sheamus, who attacked him after the match, pinned him, and won the title. Roman would spend the rest of the year chasing Sheamus for the belt, eventually winning it back in January 2016.Then hed lose it again before the end of the month, this time to Triple H.To skim over some of this as Rollins is out injured for this entire period the result was one of the worst main events in WrestleMania history, where Roman Reigns won the title back from Triple H to a chorus of one hundred thousand WWE fans booing him for all the wrong reasons.Money in the Bank 2016: Redesign, Rebuild, ReclaimSource: WWEAfter WrestleMania 32, Reigns would defend the title in a pair of great matches against AJ Styles, but whats noteworthy is what happened afterwards. At Extreme Rules 2016, after Roman had retained his title, Seth Rollins popped up out of nowhere, attacked Roman, and laid him out.Rollins mantra was simple: Redesign himself, rebuild himself, and reclaim the title he never lost, and at Money in the Bank 2016, he did just that. For the first time, Reigns and Rollins finally faced off on pay-per-view in a one-on-one match, and in a rather shocking result, Seth Rollins would get the surprise victory.But turnabouts fair play, and that damned briefcase comes into play once more, as Dean Ambrose, who won the briefcase earlier that same night, ran down and beat Rollins for the title, making for the historic night where all three former Shield members held the WWE Championship on the same night.So it was finally going to happen, after two years of build-up, the historic triple threat match between all three members of The Shield was set forBattlegrounda B-show pay-per-view that no one really cared about, and the match wasfine. Dean Ambrose won, and it will forever be a crime against history that this is the only time this match happened.Late 2016: Uneasy AlliesAfter Battleground, the WWE Brand Split officially came into effect, where Raw and SmackDown would become their own separate shows, with separate rosters and separate world titles. Dean Ambrose was drafted to SmackDown as the WWE Champion while Reigns and Rollins were both drafted to Raw to compete for the brand-new Universal Championship.Seth would face Finn Balor for the title in a losing effort at Summerslam 2016, though Balor would suffer an injury during the match that forced him to vacate the title less than 24 hours later. This led to a four-way match for the vacant belt featuring both Rollins and Reigns, but it would end in drama and controversy.In the climax of the match, Triple H made a shocking return to attack Roman Reigns, and while it seemed like he was going to hand the win to Seth Rollins, Hunter would instead betray Rollins, hitting him with the Pedigree and gifting the title to Kevin Owens. With Seth Rollins now a good guy again, and WWE still trying (and failing) to make the fans like Roman Reigns as their hero, the two became uneasy allies for the rest of 2016 as they both unsuccessfully challenged Kevin Owens for the Universal Championship.As 2017 rolled around, the two had very little to do with each other. Rollins was pursuing his revenge against Triple H in the build to WrestleMania, while Roman Reigns was getting a historic (and wildly unpopular) win over The Undertaker in what was supposed to be the deadmans retirement match, but he hated how it went so much he came back several more times.2017: ReunionFor the spring and summer of 2017, Rollins and Reigns would once again remain separate. Roman was having a beautiful car-crash of a feud with Braun Strowman, but Rollins was stumbling upon the makings of the next big step in our story.In the 2017 draft, Dean Ambrose returned to Raw, which meant that for the first time since The Shield broke up, all three men were on the same brand and of the same heel/face alignment. Cant you just smell the reunion in the air?Thats exactly what began to happen as Rollins would appeal to Ambrose, trying to get him on-side as the two chased after the miscellaneous roster of heels on Raw at the time. After a few weeks of will they, wont they? Dean and Seth officially reunited and won the Raw Tag Team Championships from Sheamus and Cesaro at Summerslam, while Roman was losing to Brock Lesnar in the main event.With two members reunited, all that remained was to bring Roman back into the fold, and come the Fall, thats what happenedafter a brief hiccup.You see, the official reunion match was set for the TLC pay-per-view in October, but there was a breakout of the mumps, of all things, across the roster, leaving Roman unable to compete. This created the hilarious image of 49-year-old Kurt Angle trying to be one of the cool kids in the Shield gear after Dean and Seth recruited him as a replacement.Thankfully, a month later, the actual big reunion match occurred, as Roman returned to challenge The New Day to a historic match at Survivor Series, which The Shield won.2018: Holding pattern, and tragedyRoman Reigns during the Mens Royal Rumble match during the WWE Royal Rumble at Lucas Oil Stadium. | Joe Camporeale-Imagn ImagesReigns and Rollins story didnt progress much in 2018; both men remained face, but they didnt have much to do with each other. Seth Rollins would have a fantastic run with the Intercontinental Championship throughout the year, with Dean Ambrose still an ally at his side. Meanwhile, Roman was unsuccessfully challenging Brock Lesnar for the Universal Championship in yet another candidate for the worst WrestleMania main event of all time.Reigns eventually got his big win at Summerslam 2018, and as world champion, he called upon his Shield brothers again to help him take on Braun Strowman, Drew McIntyre, and Dolph Ziggler in a match at Super ShowDown in Australia. The Shield were still together, and hadnt fallen apart again yet.Then the real world got in the way again.On an October episode of Raw, Roman Reigns came out and introduced himself to the crowd with his real name, Joe Anoai, and he revealed that the leukaemia that had ended his football career 11 years prior had returned. With his future in the wrestling business uncertain, he laid the Universal Championship in the ring, hugged a tearful goodbye to Dean and Seth, and walked out, unsure when hed be back.Then Dean Ambrose turned heel on Seth Rollins later that night, sparking a feud that was so bad it made Ambrose leave WWE for good.We dont have time.2019: Happy reunions, not much progressBy and large, 2019 was a good year for both Seth and Roman.Seth kicked things off in a big way, winning the Royal Rumble and challenging Brock Lesnar for the Universal Championship at WrestleMania in April. However, before then, Roman Reigns returned in February 2019 and gave the joyous news that his leukaemia was once again in remission, and hed be able to return to the ring full-time.Combine that with the looming expiration of Dean Ambroses WWE contract which he had publicly announced he did not intend to renew WWE took their last opportunity to cash in, and did one more Shield reunion match for everyone to enjoy. It was nice, but it didnt really matter in the grand scheme of things.At WrestleMania, Seth Rollins won the Universal Championship from Lesnar, while Reigns defeated Drew McIntyre in a feel-good showcase match, after which Roman would be drafted to SmackDown, separating the two for almost the entire year.The only interaction the two had was in November during the build to Survivor Series, which in 2019 was a three-way brand showdown between Raw, SmackDown, and NXT. On an episode of SmackDown, Rollins and Reigns faced off in a one-on-one match, but it ended in a disqualification. They were also two of the final three in the mens elimination tag match at the pay-per-view, but Rollins was eliminated by Keith Lee before they could interact.Reigns didnt do much of note in 2019, but Seth reigned as Universal Champion through the spring and summer, eventually losing it to Bray Wyatt and then turning heel after Survivor Series, becoming the Far Cry 5-inspired Monday Night Messiah.Early 2020: COVID ruins everythingThe pair stayed apart in 2020. Going into WrestleMania, Seth was in a feud with Kevin Owens, while Roman was set to challenge Goldberg for the Universal Championship.Unfortunately, you know all too well what happened in March of 2020.While WWE did keep running shows in their empty Performance Center training facility, including WrestleMania, Roman Reigns decided to sit out the spring and most of the summer due to his prior health conditions putting him at high risk. However, this ended up being a blessing in disguise, as this hiatus gave him room to reassess his career up until this point and make a monumental shift when he came back after the main event of Summerslam 2020.Summerslam 2020: The Tribal Chief ascendsRoman Reigns throws a punch at Jacob Fatu (right) on Saturday, Feb. 1, 2025, during the WWE Royal Rumble at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis.The Big Dog, the hero that no one actually liked, was finally gone after six agonising years, and with Paul Heyman at his side, Roman Reigns turned heel for the first time since his days in The Shield, casting off his goofy vest and declaring himself the Tribal Chief, leaning into his Samoan heritage to crown himself the god-emperor of WWE, and it was fantastic.He won the Universal Championship just a week later, and a championship reign that would last for 1,316 days had begun.Royal Rumble 2022: Seth shakes RomanWere skipping over 2021 entirely because Roman and Seth have zero interaction during this time. By this point in their respective careers, the pair tended to stay apart from one another, but it meant that when their paths finally did cross, it felt like a big deal.Such is the case for their clash at Royal Rumble 2022, a feud built entirely around the fact that Seth Rollins is Roman Reigns kryptonite. No man can get in Romans head like Seth can, because ultimately all the trauma that turned Roman into the Tribal Chief goes back to that moment in 2014 when Seth stuck a chair in his back.It makes their Royal Rumble 2022 match a great watch with an extremely compelling finish. After Seth enters to the Shields old entrance music just to mess with Roman, he has Seth in the Guillotine Choke hold and seemingly has the match won, but when Seth gets his hand onto the ring rope, Roman refuses to let go, so blinded by his hatred. As a result, he gets himself disqualified, keeping the championship, but officially having this marked down as a loss to Seth.WrestleMania 38: ForeshadowingBy April, both men were in very different positions. Roman Reigns would face Brock Lesnar (again) in the main event, winning the WWE Championship as well as his Universal Championship, unifying the two world titles that were split in 2016. This is when Michael Cole would officially declare Roman Reigns is in god-mode, and the historic length of his title reign was becoming apparent.Seth, meanwhile, didnt have an opponent for WrestleMania, so was instead booked against a mystery opponent who turned out to be Cody Rhodes. Rhodes had left WWE in 2016, joined the Bullet Club, helped found AEW, and was now coming home to reclaim his kingdom. He would beat Seth, and the two entered a months-long feud that would all come back around soon enoughBut more on that later.2023: Pieces falling into place2023 saw no direct interaction between Rollins and Reigns, but there is important setup happening across the board. First of all, Cody Rhodes won the 2023 Royal Rumble and was thought to be the conquering hero against Roman Reigns at WrestleMania 39, only to shockingly fail in his quest to finish the story.Post-Mania, it was declared that Raw would be introducing a new world championship exclusive to that brand, after a year of Roman having both belts had gotten stale. In a tournament that culminated at Night of Champions, Seth Rollins beat AJ Styles to win the title and would hold it for the rest of the year.Royal Rumble 2024: Finish the story?At the start of 2024, Roman was world champion on SmackDown, and Rollins was world champion on Raw, and both had a history with the man who won the 2024 Royal Rumble, Cody Rhodes, winning it for the second year in a row. Seth was Codys first opponent when the American Nightmare and their feud afterwards got quite brutal. However, Roman is the one Cody just failed to topple the year before.Things got a little complicated in the fallout of the Rumble thanks to The Rock sticking his oar in, but the net result was some magic. At a press conference in Las Vegas, Cody Rhodes interrupted The Rock and Roman Reigns talking about their shared family history and making a big main event match to declare that he, as the Royal Rumble winner, would be facing Roman Reigns at WrestleMania 40.In the scuffle that ensued, it was actually Seth Rollins who came to Codys aid against The Bloodline.WrestleMania 40: Codys ShieldWWE Universal Championship match between Roman Reigns and Cody Rhodes during WrestleMania XL Sunday at Lincoln Financial Field. | Joe Camporeale-Imagn ImagesAnd so the big night came. In an impassioned plea, Seth told Cody that he wanted to see Romans empire fall more than anyone, begging Cody to let me be your shield against what The Bloodline had become. Cody accepted.In the main event of Night 1, The Rock and Roman Reigns faced Cody Rhodes and Seth Rollins in a battle to determine the stipulation for the following nights title match. It was a war between all four men, but thanks to Bloodline shenanigans, it was The Rock and Roman Reigns who came out victorious.When Night 2 opened, Seths wounds from the previous nights battle caused him to lose his World Heavyweight Championship to Drew McIntyre, but that wouldnt stop him from helping Cody or rather, hurting Roman in the main event.Roman Reigns vs Cody Rhodes is a brilliant distillation of everything thats great about WWE, but its climax is wrestling storytelling at its absolute finest.After an attack from The Rock, Roman Reigns has a chair in his hand and has Cody dead to rights. He can retain his title and continue his 1,316-day reign; all he has to do is hit Cody and put him down for good, and hes going to. Untilin the corner of his eye, Seth Rollins, wearing The Shields old gear, rises to his feet in the ring.Seths back is to Roman; Roman has the chair in his hand, and in that moment, Seths betrayal from 2014 is all he can think about. All of that trauma that drove Roman to be who he is today overwhelms him, and he cant stop himself. He hits Seth in the back with the chair, giving Cody the opening he needs to get the advantage, hit three Crossroads, and win the WWE Championship, ending Romans historic run.Cody may have won the title, but Seth Rollins is the reason Roman lost everything.Royal Rumble 2025: A Big StompAfter WrestleMania 40, most of the major players would go their separate ways for the rest of 2024. Roman disappeared for the spring, returning in the main event of Summerslam 2024 to attack his former Bloodline underling, Solo Sikoa, locking them into a feud that would last all the way until January 2025. Meanwhile, Seth took a few months off to recover from a minor injury, then failed to regain his World Heavyweight Championship, then became an awkward third wheel in the otherwise great feud between CM Punk and Drew McIntyre.Speaking of, CM Punk would become the target for Seth Rollins hatred, as the two had been at each others throats since Punk returned to WWE in late 2023, and as it turned out, Royal Rumble 2025 was the perfect storm.During the match, Roman and Seth would cross paths again for the first time since WrestleMania 40, and in the faceoff that ensued, CM Punk took advantage and eliminated both of them from the match only to be eliminated himself by Logan Paul seconds later. In the moments that followed, Seth absolutely snapped, brawling with Punk before double-foot-stomping Romans head into the ground in a truly brutal-looking spot.Here Seth stood, between the two men he hated most in all the world. Whats a man to do?WrestleMania 41: The Vision comes to fruitionSeth Rollins during the Mens Royal Rumble match during the WWE Royal Rumble at Lucas Oil Stadium. | Joe Camporeale-Imagn ImagesWith it clear the animosity between Seth, Roman, and Punk cant possibly cool down any other way, a huge main event is set for Night 1 of WrestleMania 41. No titles on the line, just pure hatred between three men who have it out for each other, with a lot of the drama centering around Paul Heyman.Heyman had been Punks long-time best friend, but he had also spent the past five years counseling Roman Reigns as the Tribal Chiefs Wiseman. CM Punk pulled a favour from the year prior to force Heyman to be in his corner, rather than Romans for their WrestleMania main event, but the Architect and the Visionary, Seth Rollins, saw this as an opportunity.In the climax of a brilliant match, Heyman slid a chair to Punk, and just as he was about to hit Roman with it, Heyman whacked CM Punk in his CM Plums (his balls), handing the chair instead to Roman, who now stood over Seth Rollins. But this too was a ruse, and he did the exact same thing to Roman Reigns, hitting him with the low blow and handing the chair to Seth.While it wouldve been fun to see this go in a triangle all night, it turns out that was the final twist on top of the twist, with Seth Rollins walking out victorious over the men he despised, Paul Heyman by his side, having taken everything away from Roman once again.Summerslam 2026: The End?Roman would stay away from Seth for the rest of 2025. Instead, Seth, as the head of The Vision faction, would run roughshod over Raw, putting CM Punk down several times as he tried to reclaim the World Heavyweight Championship, though it seemed as if we were heading to the big Seth vs Roman blowoff match at WrestleMania 42 in April 2026.But for some reason, fate just has a thing about these two.Instead, in October 2025 before the match could even begin building Seth suffered an injury that forced him to vacate the World Heavyweight Championship, and while Seth did make it back in time for WrestleMania 42, plans had already changed. We instead got the excellent main event between Roman Reigns and CM Punk, which saw the O.T.C leave with the title.And that sets the stage for Summerslam 2026. Roman Reigns is the World Heavyweight Champion, and Seth stands before him as his kryptonite; the one man that Roman can never seem to beat, and the man that costs him everything time and time again.With this potentially being their last-ever match, it would seem like were ready for Roman Reigns to finally conquer the last of his demons and walk away from Seth Rollins for good. However, when it comes to the Visionary, you can never be sure he doesnt have something up his sleeve